tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post6455934165506127374..comments2023-10-07T02:00:48.078-07:00Comments on Trans Group Blog: So Here's a Problemhelen boydhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06979008474375552946noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-43851145700104965662007-11-14T08:56:00.000-08:002007-11-14T08:56:00.000-08:00Every community has its crazies, and ours is no ex...Every community has its crazies, and ours is no exception. We have trouble with ours because we feel so vulnerable. But anybody who has ever been part of a group knows that every group has its fringe.Nancy Nangeronihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18319010459421156999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-2357937661536340142007-11-12T12:35:00.000-08:002007-11-12T12:35:00.000-08:00Noah wrote:Barbara,I find nothing un"reason"able a...Noah wrote:<BR/><BR/>Barbara,<BR/><BR/>I find nothing un"reason"able about a male-assigned person wearing a bikini in public. Perhaps their small gesture of freedom reminds the rest of us how we participate in our own oppression and we resent them for it.<BR/><BR/>End quote.<BR/><BR/>I meant reason in the sense I wrote it not that the action is unreasonable if that was what he wanted to do and Barbara_Talbothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16495877276830687350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-26644460603403520562007-11-12T10:21:00.000-08:002007-11-12T10:21:00.000-08:00Noah,While I agree for the most part with your ide...Noah,<BR/><BR/>While I agree for the most part with your ideals regarding the world we all want to live in, the reality of the situation when dealing with children who may be gender non-conforming is that I must always ask myself this question: "What is in the best interests of THIS CHILD, AT THIS TIME?" My vision of the world this "should be" cannot compromise what I believe is the most Jenn Burletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09238894765681881430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-82338351931289629952007-11-12T08:08:00.000-08:002007-11-12T08:08:00.000-08:00Noah,I'll have to respond at greater length at a l...Noah,<BR/><BR/>I'll have to respond at greater length at a later date, probably in a separate blog post, but for the record, I entirely disagree with calling someone transphobic who (1) expresses any sadness/difficulty with their partner transitioning, and (2) calling someone transphobic who is trying to acknowledge how some forms/expressions of transness make education/outreach more difficult helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-53791316216553512252007-11-11T22:15:00.000-08:002007-11-11T22:15:00.000-08:00All,Why are we referring to the person in the biki...All,<BR/><BR/>Why are we referring to the person in the bikini as "he" and a "man"? We have no basis on which to make that conclusion. I'm dismayed that this is taking place on a trans blog. <BR/><BR/>Lena,<BR/><BR/>I have read <I>She's Not the Man I Married</I>, which is how I know that Helen Boyd has much unquestioned cissexual privilege. Being married to a trans person, in Boyd's world is "notNoahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179037764363782647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-826317288202702022007-11-11T13:30:00.000-08:002007-11-11T13:30:00.000-08:00Well, like a lot of anecdotes, this one can;t prov...Well, like a lot of anecdotes, this one can;t provide the mindset of the transperson. Was he an exhibitionist of sort? Was he oblivious, lost in a pink fog dreaming that at the distance some-how he passed.<BR/><BR/>I see threads on a forum where people exclaim "Eep!I got read!" The pictures of the outing tell the reason less diplomatically than most words can.<BR/><BR/>Years in the closet (Barbara_Talbothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16495877276830687350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-14348026463726528152007-11-08T15:05:00.000-08:002007-11-08T15:05:00.000-08:00the word illegal caught my attention in the studen...the word illegal caught my attention in the student's question...<BR/><BR/>I'm just thinking off the top of my head here but anyway... I think there's an odd fantasy about laws and illegality that floats around. When one is privileged along a certain axis (i.e. gender identity and expression for cisgendered people) there can be a tendency to assume that the role of the law is to affirm one's own Richard M. Juanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12777152393210448146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-21135010640472613332007-11-07T20:53:00.000-08:002007-11-07T20:53:00.000-08:00so the issue for me was how to re-position this gu...<I>so the issue for me was how to re-position this guy as harmless, but it's an awful lot of bullshit to work against - all of our sex negativity, our suspicion of male sexuality, & transphobia.</I><BR/><BR/>An <B>awful</B> lot, and you don't have an awful lot of time, in a class. I wish I knew a shortcut, but I don't. I guess you could say, "trust me" - if your student is ready to.grvsmthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214321764506704369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-44025730107697629782007-11-07T16:52:00.000-08:002007-11-07T16:52:00.000-08:00jenn, i think we were posting at the same time, bu...jenn, i think we were posting at the same time, but you expressed another aspect of what i meant: no matter how we feel about this guy, he makes our jobs a lot harder with the public, whether those people are parents of trans children or employers or legislators or law enforcement.<BR/><BR/>but i'm not for telling him he can't do what he does, certainly not during this ENDA debate, where we helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-82271097941879561722007-11-07T16:43:00.000-08:002007-11-07T16:43:00.000-08:00julianice observation about fat women in bikinis -...julia<BR/><BR/>nice observation about fat women in bikinis - you're entirely right about that, about who is "allowed" to be sexy or wear skimpy clothing.<BR/><BR/>noah,<BR/><BR/>i agree with your socratic idea, & that was how i dealt with it. it was only after i questioned him about the man in the bikini that kids being around came up. but he never made it to calling it "unnatural" & couldn't helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-89115682293983508912007-11-07T16:40:00.000-08:002007-11-07T16:40:00.000-08:00Following up on what others have said; I want to m...Following up on what others have said; I want to make sure everyone understands my comment from earlier, as it comes from the perspective of child, youth and family advocacy work.<BR/><BR/>Frequently the very first challenge I and the others who work with me face in serving the needs of gender non-conforming and transgender children and youth is adult fears about "what this means" for their Jenn Burletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09238894765681881430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-33566417495507178652007-11-07T15:23:00.000-08:002007-11-07T15:23:00.000-08:00oops, I just noticed noah's post, which was along ...oops, I just noticed noah's post, which was along the same lines as mine. Also, I want to second what Lena said about Helen not being anti-trans. <BR/><BR/>I understand why Helen raised the issue though. While I think everyone on this list would support the bikini person's right to wear the bikini, some in the trans community might feel that that person's behavior makes a bad impression, one that-juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703465310869693798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-58292219269522412392007-11-07T15:00:00.000-08:002007-11-07T15:00:00.000-08:00This case sort of reminds me of how some people fe...This case sort of reminds me of how some people feel that two gay men kissing is somehow inherently offensive or indecent when the exact same act between a het couple would be OK. In other words, it is the homosexuality, not the kissing, that people find offensive.<BR/><BR/>In this case, walking down a pier in a bikini is seen as OK so long as it is a form of cisgender expression (i.e., when cis -juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703465310869693798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-30821088387217105952007-11-07T14:54:00.000-08:002007-11-07T14:54:00.000-08:00Noah, I agree a Socratic approach is a good one.Ho...Noah, I agree a Socratic approach is a good one.<BR/><BR/>However, before you go around accusing Helen of being anti-trans, you might try reading <A HREF="http://www.helenboydbooks.com/?page_id=12" REL="nofollow">"My Husband Betty"</A> and <A HREF="http://www.helenboydbooks.com/?page_id=32" REL="nofollow">"She's Not the Man I Married,"</A> both of which talk in-depth about her marriage to a transLena Dahlstromhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09168550510368219281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-76608485288172696832007-11-07T11:52:00.000-08:002007-11-07T11:52:00.000-08:00This is how I would have handled it. Student, woul...This is how I would have handled it. Student, would it have been illegal for a 60-something year old female-assigned person to walk down the pier in a bikini? <BR/><BR/>Student: No. <BR/><BR/>Teacher: Why do you want the behavior you observed to be illegal?<BR/><BR/>Student: Because there were children around and I don't want them to see a man in a bikini.<BR/><BR/>Teacher: Why not?<BR/><BR/>Noahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179037764363782647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-16250322962553210082007-11-07T07:15:00.000-08:002007-11-07T07:15:00.000-08:00I see the difficulty of the situation you were in,...I see the difficulty of the situation you were in, Helen, but I'm going to take the side of the bikini-clad "guy." If you're going to be sex-positive, that means not allowing prudes to use "the CHILDREN!" as a fig leaf for their own prudery.<BR/><BR/>Exposing genitals would have crossed a line, and so would masturbating, but the bikini parade didn't. I grew up in Woodstock and in Manhattan in grvsmthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214321764506704369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-79771271347770969382007-11-07T02:45:00.000-08:002007-11-07T02:45:00.000-08:00Dang it. Forgot."no attempt at passing"I think th...Dang it. Forgot.<BR/><BR/>"no attempt at passing"<BR/><BR/>I think this illustrates another force at work -- that there is an appropriate gender binary and that oppositional sexism is a valid model.<BR/><BR/>That's a whole other subject that would take a long time to cover...Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00973499430883590125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-39998324550351941802007-11-07T02:42:00.000-08:002007-11-07T02:42:00.000-08:00Perhaps it's best to draw an analogy, even though ...Perhaps it's best to draw an analogy, even though employing them is fraught with peril. But sometimes the more of a stretch, the better.<BR/><BR/>It could even turn into a useful opportunity to explore other facets of the (real) topic at hand.<BR/><BR/>"Yea, that's inherently perv-y behavior. But, let's think a bit about this further. If a person parked their white Honda across the street fromKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00973499430883590125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-32437558412657054132007-11-06T18:03:00.000-08:002007-11-06T18:03:00.000-08:00Helen,This is the dilemma I frequently deal with i...Helen,<BR/><BR/>This is the dilemma I frequently deal with in my advocacy work on behalf of children, youth and their families. How do we support everyone's "right" to express themselves as they see fit when it comes to gender while at the same time acknowledging that far too many of "us" don't have a clue, or give a damn about the negative impression their narcissistic, age-inappropriate and Jenn Burletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09238894765681881430noreply@blogger.com