tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post2448464633776279972..comments2023-10-07T02:00:48.078-07:00Comments on Trans Group Blog: Bathrooms in Arizona, Letters to The Advocatehelen boydhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06979008474375552946noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-75226033983516493292007-08-14T22:27:00.000-07:002007-08-14T22:27:00.000-07:00I've already clarified that I don't speak for tran...I've already clarified that I don't speak for trans people.<BR/><BR/>I speak as the partner of a trans person, & imho, single use bathrooms are a good idea.<BR/><BR/>& That's all. I'm not saying the trans community should cop to this idea; I'm not saying we should push legislation for it; I'm just saying, in order to give education a chance to catch up, this might be a do-able option. It might helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-4566155193875237392007-08-11T09:00:00.000-07:002007-08-11T09:00:00.000-07:00I think it should be patently obvious that telling...I think it should be patently obvious that telling someone what they should be advocating for is horseshit. That, in effect, is what you're telling Helen she should be doing: Be a good little girl and go advocate for good little girl stuff. Leave the trans advocacy to the trans people.<BR/><BR/>I'm a transperson and I call foul.<BR/><BR/>Allies are crucial to any movement in civil rights. If Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-76377335141584287272007-08-08T19:59:00.000-07:002007-08-08T19:59:00.000-07:00Bablyon Sister,I think it should be patently obvio...Bablyon Sister,<BR/><BR/>I think it should be patently obvious that telling someone what they should be advocating for is horseshit. That, in effect, is what you're telling Helen she should be doing: Be a good little girl and go advocate for good little girl stuff. Leave the trans advocacy to the trans people.<BR/><BR/>I'm a transperson and I call foul.<BR/><BR/>Allies are crucial to any movementBettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765021402650603975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-74032987544570846072007-08-08T19:17:00.000-07:002007-08-08T19:17:00.000-07:00Jude - Thanks. My saying that the "language should...Jude - Thanks. My saying that the "language should be nuked" was careless and out of character for me. The only way we are ever going to counter that language is through dialogue and education, so I should not be saying anything that discourages anyone from being receptive to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-49718024538784799482007-08-08T06:36:00.000-07:002007-08-08T06:36:00.000-07:00If someone is acting in a dangerous or threatening...If someone is acting in a dangerous or threatening manner, any business owner has a right to ask them to leave. I’m not sure that singing and dancing in a nightclub meets that standard. Or that it maters if they were singing that Arrowsmith song, rather than something insulting or threatening to another group. I’ve never been out with a group of transsexual women where they sang that song; Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-1047620525494320872007-08-08T05:03:00.000-07:002007-08-08T05:03:00.000-07:00I often find it interesting to examine asymmetries...I often find it interesting to examine asymmetries in the MTF and FTM experience, and bathroom usage is a good example. When does the typical transman start to use the men's room? When he can no longer use the women's room - often months or years into a transition, and when he is passing consistently. <BR/><BR/>And when does a typical transwoman use the women's room? Typically, as soon as she Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13905265861328249554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-75732641763164141632007-08-07T17:47:00.000-07:002007-08-07T17:47:00.000-07:00A new letter was posted on Advocate.com today, by ...A new letter was posted on Advocate.com today, by a woman who said “I feel raped when I see a transsexual woman going into a woman's restroom.” This is Janice Raymond-esque language that we really must work to nuke. But then I read on in the letter that the trans woman in question “tried to show me the results of her SRS surgery.” This is inappropriate behavior by anyone in the presence of a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-66182502449228001122007-08-07T11:09:00.000-07:002007-08-07T11:09:00.000-07:00The fear of "increasing costs" as a byproduct of p...The fear of "increasing costs" as a byproduct of progressive legislation is one of the basic differences in the political dialogue between left and right. It has nothing to do with trans rights, civil rights or anything else.<BR/><BR/>It's a basic, fundamental divide in the political culture we live in. To label it as anything other than that is disingenuous and politically myopic.<BR/><BR/>Of Bettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765021402650603975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-80644224895639037222007-08-07T11:01:00.000-07:002007-08-07T11:01:00.000-07:00first, i think you overestimate my reach. & when i...first, i think you overestimate my reach. & when it came to legislation, i would endorse what trans activists have decided would work. to me, this is an intra-trans community conversation, not one being had with lawmakers.<BR/><BR/>second, i'm going on what has worked for us & what i hear works for other trans people; more than one transitioning person has opted for a single-occupancy restroom helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-40337007756370271232007-08-07T09:51:00.000-07:002007-08-07T09:51:00.000-07:00Updated story:"Anderson said he has no bias agains...Updated story:<BR/><BR/>"Anderson said he has no bias against transgender individuals, but could not afford to put in a third restroom specifically for that group."<BR/><BR/>http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0806netransgender0807-ON\<BR/>.html<BR/>=================<BR/><BR/>Anyone who had worked on these issues when passing legislation would be aware that this is one of the Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-90707089756922169482007-08-06T16:20:00.000-07:002007-08-06T16:20:00.000-07:00Huh.Well, there's the danger in assuming your take...Huh.<BR/><BR/>Well, there's the danger in assuming your take on the essence of anything will be shared by others.<BR/><BR/>While you, Babylon Sister, see Helen as trying to tell transpeople what they should advocate for, I, on the other hand saw it like this:<BR/><BR/>Helen, to me, was saying that while we have far reaching goals that are admirable and desirable, we should also recognize that Bettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765021402650603975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-84748019541129369662007-08-06T13:48:00.000-07:002007-08-06T13:48:00.000-07:00The essence of your post is telling transgender pe...The essence of your post is telling transgender people what they should advocate for and how they should do so. (Particularly transgender women)<BR/><BR/>When every transgender person who comented told you these weren't their goals, desires or strategies - you persisted in trying to tell them what they should do and value.<BR/><BR/>You can certainly have whatever opinions, goals & strategies you Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-54941476721611838212007-08-06T11:35:00.000-07:002007-08-06T11:35:00.000-07:00I'm not trying to have power over anyone. I'm tryi...I'm not trying to have power over anyone. I'm trying to figure out ways to prevent people from getting kicked out of clubs or not being welcome in them that takes into account all sides of the story, so that all people can feel safe in their bathroom of choice.helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-70007363158089075652007-08-06T11:30:00.000-07:002007-08-06T11:30:00.000-07:00Agreed - you wish to have power over another commu...Agreed - you wish to have power over another community. A discussion can't happen under those conditions.Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-40362255464856533272007-08-06T11:07:00.000-07:002007-08-06T11:07:00.000-07:00So you do see it as "us vs. them" already. There's...So you do see it as "us vs. them" already. There's no use in talking further, then.helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-30976375160798862712007-08-06T10:34:00.000-07:002007-08-06T10:34:00.000-07:00i'm trying to explain that dismissing women's fear...i'm trying to explain that dismissing women's fears of people they consider "men" isn't going to help anyone because women & trans people have good reason to fear some men, right?<BR/>=============<BR/><BR/>As the above murder story documents - I have reason to fear men & women. Particularly non-transgender men & women. The violence can (and has) been physical - but also economic and social. Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-87214674805981066952007-08-06T09:42:00.000-07:002007-08-06T09:42:00.000-07:00some are bigots, no doubt.but a lot of women have ...some are bigots, no doubt.<BR/><BR/>but a lot of women have had pretty horrible experiences in their lives, & most of the violence women experience comes from male-bodied people. (likewise, i suspect most of the violence directed at MTFs & FTMs comes from male-bodied people, too.)<BR/><BR/>for non-trans women to be suspect of people who were born male isn't really insane, imho. the fear isn't helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-66692766947427926862007-08-06T06:44:00.000-07:002007-08-06T06:44:00.000-07:00Is she still covered under gender identity/express...Is she still covered under gender identity/expression/presentation laws? Are there distinctions for looking like your target gender vs. acting in ways considered "normal" for your gender?<BR/><BR/>Are women who object to women whose toes are pointing the way really just to be dismissed as bigots? <BR/>============================<BR/><BR/>Yes people are covered. I'd personally ask this women to Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-77420921523436367812007-08-05T21:18:00.000-07:002007-08-05T21:18:00.000-07:00Trainings are a first step. A logical, good, kick-...Trainings are a first step. A logical, good, kick-ass step. But how do we train a populace?<BR/><BR/>Obviously, we can't herd them all into a room and say, "This and that and that and this." Because we're talking about a non-homogenous group of people.<BR/><BR/>Nevermind the fact that we should be open enough to the idea that there are women raised female out there who would like to pee standing Bettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08765021402650603975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-76046123446013487572007-08-05T21:12:00.000-07:002007-08-05T21:12:00.000-07:00I know of only one restaurant/bar in Arizona that ...I know of only one restaurant/bar in Arizona that has two unisex "s/he" bathrooms (with private stalls inside) -- which I think is Helen Boyd's suggestion. It works really well at that restaurant, which of course is a gay-owned/gay- and trans-friendly nightspot that also happens to be in Scottsdale, not far from the bar where this fracas over TG clientele occurred.<BR/><BR/>I too am very Noir2001https://www.blogger.com/profile/04648636826862585121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-35171422899255935932007-08-05T21:06:00.000-07:002007-08-05T21:06:00.000-07:00I think we're talking past each other at this poin...I think we're talking past each other at this point, but I was trying to figure out what you do in the case of a woman who stands to pee.<BR/><BR/>Is she still covered under gender identity/expression/presentation laws? Are there distinctions for looking like your target gender vs. acting in ways considered "normal" for your gender?<BR/><BR/>Are women who object to women whose toes are pointing helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-9339549910552115012007-08-05T20:56:00.000-07:002007-08-05T20:56:00.000-07:00How would I? I've provided training on what the la...How would I? I've provided training on what the law requires to police departments, legislators, prisons, heads of government agencies, hospitals etc. These trainings included the concepts of gender identity and expression and information on the situations you refer to and how the law would be applied (other than the woman that I would sit down and advise to sit down). They were not in NYC - Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-66541962326946280052007-08-05T20:05:00.000-07:002007-08-05T20:05:00.000-07:00fair enough, Babylon Sister. it's easy enough to g...fair enough, Babylon Sister. it's easy enough to get stuck with 'separate but equal.' i mean it's not like the ERA ever made it on the federal level, either.<BR/><BR/>either way: how do you resolve the issue of woman-raised-female being upset by toes pointing in the wrong direction, when women are standing to pee? how do you educate women that a woman who dresses & presents as butch is supposed helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-75085520441983960032007-08-05T19:42:00.000-07:002007-08-05T19:42:00.000-07:00HelenI didn't say that legal ID would end the prob...Helen<BR/><BR/>I didn't say that legal ID would end the problem. I said that legally accepting transgender woman as not being woman would have effects upon other legal issues - like the right to have ID that reflects ones transitioned gender. Or the right to marry opposite gender partners. Both of which are already heavily under assault. <BR/><BR/>A precedent of that nature would certainly be Babylon Sisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05953540960944486009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13297025.post-40678267839148012532007-08-05T18:59:00.000-07:002007-08-05T18:59:00.000-07:00babylon sister - you brought up the employment iss...babylon sister - you brought up the employment issue. i was talking about bars, as in the AZ case. but the point is, if requiring special physical alterations didn't impact the hiring of people who are disabled, then requiring single use bathrooms in companies shouldn't either. after all, they would be for the good of all, not *because* of trans people, but a modified effort in order to allow helen_boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10449290480827158734noreply@blogger.com